tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC December 28, 2016 8:00pm-9:01pm PST
thank you very much for joining us. we're out of time. sorry. . thanks, lawrence. >> thank you. >> chris hayes is up next. >> let me be sort of a neutral guy. >> plus -- >> the stock market has stopped rising until what appears to be the trump rally. >> inside the so-called trump rally and the dangers of a president taking credit for what he inserts. then author rick pearlstein on the nixonian grievances of donald trump as he lashes out at president obama. and from pizza gate to vote tampering by russian agents, new numbers on the bipartisan
trouble of what americans are willing to believe. "all in" starts right now. good evening. from new york, i'm chris hayes, in 23 days, donald trump will become president of the united states and today in the wake of the united nations passing a non-binding resolution demanding that israel stop building settlements in palestinian territory, a resolution trump had tried to kill at the behest of the israeli government, trump appeared before reporters at his mar-a-lago resort in florida where he seemed to suggest he could pull the u.s. out of the u.n. entirely if it doesn't "live up to its potential." >> reporter: mr. trump, you have been critical of the u.n. lately. do you want the united states to leave the u.n.? >> the u.n. has such tremendous potential, not living up to its potential. there is such tremendous potential but it's not living up. when do you see the united nations solving problems? they don't. they cause problems so if it lives up to the potential, it's a great thing. if it doesn't, it's a waste of
time and money. >> this morning, trump criticized president obama for impeding his transition with inflammatory words and deeds but in his remarks to reporters, trump struck a different tone saying he spoke with the president and their conversation had been very, very nice. with the obama era drawing to a close, the outgoing secretary of state john kerry delivered a remarkable speech in washington in which he rebuked israel in uncau uncharacteristically bunt terms, saying israel undermined its stated commitment to a two state solution with the palestinians. >> the israeli prime minister publicly supports a two-state solution but his current coalition is the most right wing in israeli history with an agenda driven by the most extreme elements. the result is that policies of this government which the prime minister himself just described as more committed to settlements than any in israel's history are
leading in the opposite direction. they're leading towards one state. >> kerry's speech amounted to a declaration that if the two-state solution is dead, it's the government of benjamin netanyahu not the obama administration that killed it. >> friends need to tell each other the hard truths. and friendships require mutual respect. despite our best efforts over the years. the two-state solution is now in serious jeopardy. >> unsurprisingly, secretary of state john kerry's comments generated an outraged response from netanyahu who has been harshly critical of an obama administration that, in september, finalized a deal to give israel a record $38 billion in military aid over 10 years. >> i must express my deep disappointment with the speech today of john kerry.
a speech that was almost as unbalanced as the anti-israel resolution passed at the u.n. last week. >> the u.s. abstained from the resolution, declined to use its veto to block it the israeli government accused the obama administration of orchestrating the resolution, something kerry denied. the israelis made clear their view that in the words of the israeli cultural minister, obama is history, we have trump. netanyahu tweeting today "president-elect trump, thank you for your warm fridsp and clear-cut support for israel." and he cc'd two of trump's children for good measure. back in february at an msnbc town hall trump vowed to remain neutral in the middle east conflict. >> whose fault do you think it is? >> you know, i don't want to get into it for a different reason, joe because if i do win, there has to be a certain amount of surprise, unpredictability, our country has no unpredictability. let me be a neutral guy.
i'll give it a shot. it would be so great. i would be so proud if i could do that. >> trump backed away from his neutral stance and no longer seems so concerned about unpredictability. trump tweeting "we cannot continue to let israel be treated with such total disdain and disrespect. they used to have a great friend in the u.s. but not anymore. the beginning of the end was the horrible iran deal and now this, u.n., stay strong israel. january 20 is fast approaching." joining me now, brad sherman, a member of the house foreign relations committee. are you on trump's side on this? >> i don't think so, i think his appointment of david friedman to be the next ambassador to israel is a step backwards in our effort to achieve a two-state solution. i think obama has been a very pro-israel president. this resolution is not much different than resolutions that passed under -- with the acquiescence of reagan and carter and others and, of course, as you mentioned you have the largest military aid
package by far that israel has ever received negotiated by the obama administration. >> do you approve of the administration's decision to abstain in the vote? >> i think that was a mistake. i think -- >> wait, hold on a second. you said it reiterated what was long-standing u.s. policy. if that's the case, why is abstention a mistake? >> well, for many years, mostly obama years, we have prevented the u.n. from passing unbalanced resolutions. and this resolution focuses on the -- on settlements as if that's the major obstacle to peace. the major obstacle to peace is not only the terrorism coming from the palestinian side but their position, sometimes disguised under the slogan "two state solution" "right of return, wra return," is their phrase. their use of the phrase "right of return" to put forward a position which when you look at
it calls for the expulsion of virtually all jews from the middle east. so it's the extreme position that the palestinians take. >> but here's my question for you, congressman, this seems to be conflated today. there's two separate issues, there is the question of do settlement expansion -- is that the obstacle to a two-state solution or peace? that's one question. and the other is is settlement expansion justified? forget whether it's an obstacle to peace, maybe you're correct that this real obstacle lies in palestinian extremism, but on the question of whether it's justified, you agree with the president of the united states, secretary of state, long standing u.s. policy that it is not justified, right? >> i don't agree with every settlement. i don't agree with everything anyone else does and you can argue that this settlement is in the wrong place, the israeli court has called for the abolition and destruction of certain outposts but that isn't the major issue. the major issue is the terrorism, the incitement.
the teaching of terrorism. >> what is your position on the charge by the israeli government -- which is a serious charge, benjamin netanyahu has made this, that the u.s. not only conspired with folks but that john kerry and the administration are now lying about having done so. do you agree with them that john kerry is lying and the administration is lying? >> the secretary's speech certainly didn't deny that there were discussions with the proponents of this resolution and had there not been the resolution would have been much worse. though whoever crafted the resolution. there was there was an american diplomat sitting next to them or not knew what the obama administration's positions were, knew how to draft it so that it wouldn't get vetoed in this lame duck situation and if it -- and if the authors of the resolution had not taken obama's consideration -- beliefs into account, it would have been a much, much worse resolution.
it might have been so bad that it would have been vetoed and perhaps that would have been a better outcome but it's clear the authors of this resolution were aware of obama's thinking. >> so are you hopeful now? you basically -- do you think it's appropriate for the israeli cultural minister to basically say good-bye president obama, we have trump now for the prime minister of israel to be interacting with the president-elect. lobbying him to come out in opposition to this, the collect coming out, is that an appropriate thing for a president-elect to do during the pran sig-- transition? >> we have a first amendment. >> sure, the first amendment doesn't touch appropriateness. >> right and i think this whole country has gotten more and more partisan and the rules of appropriateness have eroded and tonight to erode so i think it would be more appropriate if president trump focused only on
putting together his new team rather than trying to affect public policy during this transition period. that wou be more consistent with the traditions of this country and yet at the same time i see all the traditions fraying as the country becomes more partisan. >> all right, congressman brad sherman, thanks for your time. happy holidays and happy chanukah. >> good to be with you. joining me now, assistant professor at george mason university. what was your reaction to the kerry speech today? >> i thought it was remarkable. i didn't expect that to come out of his mouth. i think that's what this administration has thought. i think it's the thinking behind closed doors of every u.s. administration up until this point and what was remarkable is that they basically made it clear to everyone as well and acknowledged it. here's the problem, however. the obama administration is basically sharing this speech 23 gays left in office. they can do little now to nothing in order to make it
meaningful when marshalling political pressure. >> so how do you make sense of the timing here? there's a lot of head scratching about the timing. there's head scratching on the timing of both of these things that have happened in quick succession that the critics of the obama administration say you're a coward, that you made sure to sign the aid deal in the runup to the election because you knew that would be popular then in the lame duck session you allow this to come forward to the security council and give the speech. what's your read on the timing? >> the obama administration is incredibly pragmatic. they're not doing this because of moral reasons. they're doing this because it's not that costly and because the obama administration has an interest to dissociate itself from what's to come. the trump administration is going to consolidate israel's apartheid project, cement it, accelerate it in a reckless way and the obama administration has laid the ground work for that to happen. it had the opportunity to do this in 2011/2012 during the statehood bid. it had the opportunity to do this in 2015, to set a timetable to end the occupation, it had
the opportunity not to increase military aid from 3.0 to $3.8 billion over the next ten years. everything the obama administration has done has set the stage for what trump wants to do and so this is an effort to wash their hands and to change the legacy that they're not associated with what trump is about to do. >> you mentioned -- you said israel's apartheid project. one of the messages of the speech today, john kerry who i think would strongly disagree with that language specifically is that it's on some road, israel, given current settlement growth, to the two-state solution being no longer achievable. it seems likely to me that is a dawning awareness. and i have to say things i've read of you, other folks in this sort of palestinian rights community, it seems the folks that i read primarily have basically given up on the two-state solution. are we moving towards a moment where people just sort of officially throw in the towel on that? >> i think this is a great
learning moment for u.s. audiences to check out a map. if you can't make it to the region -- and many people can't because israel denies entry to those who are interested in human rights specifically -- this is a great moment to show a map and let people decide for themselves. the occupied territories are 22% of mandatory palestine. israel has never declared its borders and has expanded them. the settlements that we're talking about aren't on the perimeter of the west bank to expand israel's defensible borders. the settlements are built in the middle. they bisect the west bank. >> i understand that. but noura, you're citing the facts on the ground and that -- >> so that speaks for itself, chris. you're saying kerry would disagree with me. >> what you're saying without saying is yes, i do think that the ship has sailed on a two-state solution. >> no, it's not without saying it. i was just trying to illustrate for those who don't already see it for themselves the ship has sailed a long time ago. this threat, this idea that we are going to get to an apartheid
situation is not true because we're already there. we've been there. the settlers and palestinians are inextricably -- they're not separated, they're inextricably populated. the only thing that separates them is the vast difference in tweemt. the different set of laws that apply to jewish israelis and to palestinians even if they live side by side. that's an apartheid reality. >> do you think there's anything the u.s. could do at this point? it seems that here's what's -- we're looking at down the barrel of from your perspective. a kind of leninist heightening of the contradictions. should it be the case that your position is essentially the israeli government and the u.s. government say they're for a two state solution and they're not and the whole thing is a bad faith farce while things are changed on the ground that what you'll get now is something that looks more like just an honest we will support israel in whatever they do and we support the settlements. >> i think that the united states has unfortunately spoken
one thing about law and policy and their support for a palestinian state but has done a different thing all together on the ground and has made this apartheid reality very possible. it should strike everyone as quite odd and strange that there is this hoopla and reaction to condemning settlements. settlements are settler colonies. they are a war crime under international law. this should not be controversial. if you are not against settlements then you are for apartheid, explicitly. the questions we should be asking is not whether you're for this but what are you going to do when it is on the ground nothing else but apartheid reality. what will you do then? >> noura, thank you for being with me. >> thank you. >> joining me now, matt, i wanted to get your raid on what is a remarkable trajectory from trump which is underappreciated. part of the kind of factions in the republican conservative coalition that cotton to trump earliest were the kind of what
paleoconservatives, the pat buchanan lineage. that lineage is skeptical of trade deal, skeptical of the iraq war and foreign wars and hates, loathes, the neocons, is sometimes tinged with more than a little anti-semitism about the jewish influence and the zionists running for policy for the republican party and is very skeptical of a kind of in line pro-israel stance from the sort of republican party. that's where things seem to have started and they have now ended up in the -- very far from that. how do you explain that? >> well, i think it's wor noting. you're right about where trump started. the clip that was shown earlier about trump's claim he wants to be a neutral guy, he wants to make this big deal, he said that early in the primaries and it's worth noting when he said that and that was seen as heresy against republican party positions to say i'm just going to be neutral and not take sides, not only did he continue to win republican primaries rewon among christian
evangelicals which are seen as the most pro-israel constituencies in the republican party so i think that -- let's leave that aside for the moment even though i think it says there's more political space to run on these issues than many would have us believe. when he came around eventually to give his big aipac speech, you know, he seemed to adopt some of the more traditional very right wing pro-israel positions and now we see with the nominationover friedman, the ambassador to israel, he seems to have completely gone all in with a very -- even to the right of netanyahu. >> in terms of the coalition what's been fascinating is people like bill kristol or jennifer rubin, folks on the right who are -- were very critical of trump who sort of formed a real core of the never-trump universe, they are now completely aligned with him on this specific issue, there's a sort of interesting kind of coalition management that's
happening through his performance opposition on this issue. >> right. that's a great point because he's gotten -- you know, right on the israel issue but he still maintains a very vigorous critique of a whole set of other positions he's critical of the iraq war, he's critical of nation building, he's hugging up to sisi, he seems to have dispensed with this whole idea of democracy promotion, something that the iraq war was in part sold upon so it seems for a lot of this faction that as long as you're correct on israel and backing netanyahu than everything else we can put aside. >> do you think -- i want to ask the question that i was asking noura which seems floating in the air and is the subtext of terry. can you imagine a trump administration saying "yeah, we don't -- it's no longer u.s. policy that we object to settlement expansion and we no longer view the two-state solution as the preferred goal. can you imagine an american administration saying that and
what its affects would be? >> i can just because personally i have no real idea of the policy formation that will exist in a trump administration knowing how he chooses to make various decisions but there is one thing i would point out here. i mentioned the friedman nomination, friedman a pro-settlement right wing supportive of the -- israel's right wing but there's the mattis nomination as secretary of defense. mattis the former head of centcom, general james mattis who said at various times in a specific interview i think it was 2013 where he talked about his experience as head of u.s. central command in the middle east and understanding the negative impact of the israeli palestinian conflict on u.s. interests in the region supporting secretary kerry's negotiation process. a very realist analysis of the way this conflict undermines u.s. relationships in the region. i'm interested to find out how that conversation will go and what that impact will be. >> that's a very excellent point. thank you for being here
tonight. appreciate. >> it thank you. moments ago donald trump emerged from mar-a-lago with don king, he started taking questions from reporters in what turned into the closest thing to a press conference we've seen from the president-elect in months. here that is in full. >> hello, everybody. everybody okay? you all know don king? who doesn't know don king? >> great to be in america. and now with our leaders we're going to make new days. make america great again. >> reporter: is the israeli flag a message for obama? >> the israeli flag is about peace. peace in the middle east, shimon peres made me a peace ambassador so we want everyone to come together as one unit and make things happen and he's the leader that can make it happen. >> are you okay? everything fine? >> reporter: we're wondering, do you have any comments about kerry's speech? >> the speech speaks for itself. it speaks for itself. >> but he said friends need to set friends straight and that was one of the things --
>> we have different views. we have to have peace. i think it set it back but we're going to see what happens after january 20, right? i think you'll be impressed. >> reporter: mr. president-elect, sprint tells us the 5,000 jobs you announced today were part of the 50,000 -- >> no, sprint will give -- i just spoke with the head person, he says because of me they're doing 5,000 jobs in this country. they just put a release out and you'll see it. that's that. and wassa is doing 3,000 jobs. >> so the 5,000 jobs -- >> 5,000 to sprint. >> reporter: are they not part of the 50,000. >> i'll give you their statement. >> reporter: mr. president-elect, there a lawsuit where journalists are trying to get t records that congress saw for alleged russian intervention in the election. do you think any record from russian intervention should be made public? >> i think they should do the best they can, figure it owl l
all. >> reporter: do you think there should be a public option for health care in the united states? >> well, i had three of the greatest in the world today, cleveland clinic, mayo clinic, johns hopkins, the three top people from the best in the world and they were amazing and they have really good ideas and we have to get it fixed. i've been saying we're going to take care of our vets and we're going to take care of our vets so i had the three greatest people in the world to look at those institutions, i think you'd all agree, and they were all in a room together with myself and some others and we're working on something to make it great because veterans have been treated very unfairly. >> hear, hear. >> reporter: [ inaudible question ] >> well, i don't want to see veterans waiting online for two weeks and in many cases they have a minor illness and it takes so long to see a doctor it turns out to be a major illness and beyond that. so we'll see what happens. if you look at my web site, i pretty much called it but they
want to see fast service. the doctors were explaining to me today, things can be taken care of quickly when you wait too long it's life threatening. that's what's been happening. people are dying so we'll fix it properly not like it's been done over the past. >> reporter: how close are you -- >> reporter: you said you wanted to dissolve and the new york a.g.'s office says you cannot do that until they finish their investigation. how will that affect -- >> well, i have a foundation that's given millions and millions of dollars to people over the years and it's been very well thought of. we'll just see what happens. it's given millions and millions of dollars, zero expense. zero. nobody has that that i know of but zero expense. >> reporter: how close are you to showing off the plans for your business? >> that's very routine, honestly, it's a very rue teen thing, not a big deal. you people are making that a big deal because, look, number one, when i won they all knew i had a
big business all over the place, in fact i reported it with the -- as you know, with the federal elections it's a much bigger business than anybody thought. it's a great business but i'm going to have nothing to do with it. i don't have to because as you know i wouldn't have to two that by law but when i ran people know i have a very big business so i mean they didn't elect -- they elected me partially for that reason so i think that will work out very easily. it's a very -- it's a very simple situation. it's not a big deal. and we'll be having a press conference some time in early january. >> can owe elaborate on your conversation with obama today? is the transition of power going as smoothly as you would have hoped? >> he called me. we had a very, very good talk about -- generally about things. he was in hawaii. it was a very, very nice call and i actually thought we
covered a lot of territory. >> reporter: are you satisfied with the transition thus far? >> well, our staffes are gettin along very well and i'm getting along very well with him other than a couple statements that i responded to and we talked about it and smiled about it and nobody's ever going to know because we're never going to be going against each other in that way so -- but he was -- it was a great conversation. >> reporter: mr. president-elect, senator graham said they're putting together sanctions to go after putin personally. will you back that? >> i don't know what he's doing. i haven't spoken to senator graham. i don't know. haven't spoken to him. he ran against me as you know and i haven't spoken to him. >> you have to admit he shocked the world! nothing else, he shocked the world. >> senator graham ran against me. i haven't spoken to him since. >> reporter: what do you think generally about sanctions? >> i think we ought to get on with our lives. computers have complicated lives greatly. the whole age of computer as made it where nobody knows
what's going on. we have speed and other things but i'm not sure you have the kind of security you need but i have not spoke within the senators and i will be over a period of time. >> reporter: do you believe. [ inaudible question ] >> i think you know what i believe. i'm very, very strong on israel. i think israel's been treated very, very unfairly by a lot of different people. you look at resolutions in the united nations, look at what's happened, they're up for 20 reprimands and other nations that are horrible places. horrible places that treat people horribly, haven't even been reprimand sod there's something going on and i think it's unfair to israel. thank you very much. thank you. >> all right, that was president-elect donald trump with don king holding a u.s., israel and i think a few other flags in his signature denim coat. a man who was going to speak at
the rnc until reporting indicates they told him having a convicted murderer who stomped a man to death at the rnc would -- manslaughter would be a weird look but there he was with the president-elect down at mar-a-lago, the famous and legendary don king and the president-elect taking more questions than he's taken since winning the election. joining me now, "washington post" columnist catherine rampell. so that seemed like a typical trump performance. not a ton of answers. >> a lot of deflection. >> a lot of deflection. what stuck out to me was this sort of back and forth on sprint today. so the president-elect says basically i talked to sprint, they're bringing back 5,000 jobs. sprint says that was part of a thing we already agreed to and arranged. he seemed to go back on that but it shows you how slippery it can be to cover this president-elect's claims. >> yes. i mean, his claims should be taken seriously but not literally or whatever the expression du jour is because
it's hard to take them literally because they would contradict themselves at every turn. in the case of the sprint back and forth their parent company announced 50,000 jobs being created in the usa few weeks ago, actually, post-election but prior to that their owner announced that they were going to be investing something like $50 billion in the u.s. and -- >> so their owner is a massive bank based out of japan, they made this announcement during the campaign season. >> and it was likely then that a lot of that would go to the united states. beyond that, one wonder what is trump may have said to sprint. they have a merger being considered right now so we don't know what the tradeoffs were. we don't know if this would have happened either way. in sprint's perspective, the best thing they can hope for is that trump believes that they are doing this solely because of something persuasive he said.
>> and i think -- you know, look it's interesting, they have not had him do a real press conference -- that wasn't really a press conference, we call that availability but he took a number of questions. they haven't had it since july 27 which was the day after the rnc, the day that the last press conference he had where he looked in the camera and told the foreign government to commit espionage against his political opponent when he told russia -- >> cyber espionage, no less. >> he told them hack hillary's e-mails, he later said he was being sarcastic. but they've kept him away from it and it's been a while since we've seen the classic trumpian deflection but it's the same stuff we saw during the campaign and what we can expect during the administration. >> why bother answering any questions, right? nobody's holding him to it, his voters don't seem to care. he can change his positions on any given issue and he's forgiven so why bother participating in the process of democracy if he doesn't have to,
essentially. >> we should note that in some ways keeping away from press conference paid its benefits down the stretch of the campaign. his handlers and staff recognized he tended to do things in those press conferences like calling on the russians to hack his opponents e-mails. >> but he was erratic in other media as well. help the keep him going from twitter so i don't know that it made or broke the election. >> as a reporter, i have to say it's nice to ask questions and even if you don't get answers to have some back and forth as opposed to everyone waiting around till the next tweet then just analyzing those. >> obviously. my point being that i'm not sure that his erratic behavior was necessarily curbed by his not having these press conferences so maybe it helped his campaign, maybe it didn't. at the very least you could argue yes this is bad for democracy to not have the press holding his feet to the fire. >> we'll talk about how he said one last thing about saying his
business conflicts wi s wits wi big deal. that doesn't seem to be the case according to most experts i talked to on this. it is a big deal and actually divesting is difficult and complicated so that will continue to dog him until some concrete details are giving. catherine rampell, thank you for your time. coming up, the uncharted territory of having a president-elect air his personal grievances on social media. i'll talk with a historian about who might be the closest comparison in presidential history just ahead. in reality they're not. if a denture were to be put under a microscope, we can see all the bacteria that still exists on the denture, and that bacteria multiplies very rapidly. that's why dentists recommend cleaning with polident everyday. polident's unique micro clean formula works in just 3 minutes, killing 99.99% of odor causing bacteria. for a cleaner, fresher, brighter denture every day.
nice call and i actually thought we covered a lot of territory, a lot of good territory. >>. >> reporter: are you satisfied with the transition thus far? >> well, our staffs are getting along very well and i'm getting along very well with him other than a couple statements. and we talked about it and smiled about it and nobody is ever going to know because we're never going to be going against each other in that way. >> that was donald trump moments ago fielding a question about a brushback tweet he sent to the current president of the united states this morning in which he said "doing my best to disregard the many inflammatory president o remarks." it was the first statement he has aired about president obama and the transition but a cursory look at his twitter feed will tell you all you need to know about people who criticize him. after the united steelworkers president said trump inflate it had number of jobs being kept in indiana, trump tweeted "chuck jones has done a terrible job
representing workers, no wonder companies flee the country." after alec baldwin made fun of him about tweeting, donald trump tweeted. saying "just tried watching "saturday night live," unwatchable." trump's biographer tried to explain this behavior thusly "rejected by parents who sent him away at 13, he became a bottomless pit of need." this is not the first time we've elected a president consumed by this particular emotion. with no such thing as twitter, typewriters were used to draft vindictive note on how to draft reporters like "this bears out my theory that treating them with consider kbli more conteab is in the long run a productive policy." we'll tell you who wrote that next. (vo) what's your dog food's first ingredient?
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>> rather is just a son of a bitch, don't you think? he always will be. >> he's a bastard, period. >> be sure he gets thatsty notes on his reporting. i don't know if it helps. >> he's very sensitive to that. >> have you arranged that? >> yes, sir. >> i'd hit him hard. >> one of the defining features of the richard nixon presidency was his distrust, even contempt for the press and his attempts to keep reporters at arm's length. it was through this effort to shape his public image it led to the activities that eventually cost nixon his public support and led to his resignation, something author rick pearlstein chronicles in his book "nixonland." i wanted to talk to you today
because one of the things that comes through in this incredible book is how central to all of nixon's personality, leadership style, political style was grievance, pettiness, vindictiveness, getting back, a chip on his shoulder people didn't take him serusly and he would show them. how much do you see, how much nixon do you see in trump? >> on that basic core question, that bottomless pit of need, that absence where a soul should be with domination and control it's absolutely if i c lly nixo. but nixon was shrewd, careful, he wouldn't have been tweeting, he would have been saying "let's take away the "washington post's" broadcast licenses that they rely on for revenue." which trump may be doing soon
when he's granted the power of the executive office of the presidency. >> there's two things i want to follow up on. one is nixon was -- what's striking to me isn't just this need to kind of always get back at people he feels slighted him, in the case of donald trump, but also the publicness of it. nixon would not have taken to the podium and said "i don't like this person, this person and dan rather." he was self-controlled enough to channel that. this is different in so far as it's all just out there in the public. >> but this is the pre-january 20 trump, chris. think about it. william benny, the whistle-blower of the nsa, has called basically the spying apparatus that a president has at his disposal created by bush but continued by obama turnkey totalitarianism so basically once trump can find out anything his enemies are up to and find out where their vulnerabilities
are, maybe find embarrassing things about them, leak them breitbart and soon it's on cnn, god forbid msnbc then we're talking about a different ball game here. >> so that's -- look, that's where -- that's where the sort of -- the real impeachable offense is for nixon came in. there was a bunch of things he did but, you know, one of the things he did was had this group of folks that broke into watergate and did a lot of other things directed at enemies, they discussed -- they tried to break into a therapist's office of daniel elseburg. >> they succeeded. >> which is a crazy thing to happen. what is your sense of how strong civil service was in resisting nixon's attempt to use it as a tool to pursue vendettas? >> i think the civil service has and had strong protections. and that drove him crazy, too. most famously, the bureau of labor statistics.
what happens when they say the unemployment rate is 9%. trump can't take that laying down. richard nixon didn't. he ordered one of his aides, a guy named fred mall lech, still involved in the republican party, to count the number of jews in the bureau of labor statistics so he could basically know who to cut off at the knees. he knew that the irs was a very powerful tool so he basically ordered the irs to create an operation in the basement in a locked room devoted to trying to take away the tax exemptions of anti-war groups and liberal groups. that's what the enemy list was for. >> this is a key point when you merge this with the tools of the state. i had forgot the famous mallic example was about the bureau of labor statistics. thanks for joining us. appreciate it. >> cheers. still to come, from widespread voter fraud to the internet conspiracy theory known as pizza gate, stunning new polling on what americans believe to be true. you don't want to miss it. plus, tonight's thing 1 thing 2 which starts right after this break. stick around.
thing 1 tonight, sam brownback, the republican governor from kansas, has advice for the president-elect telling the "wall street journal" that trump should mimic his kansas tax plan. brownback's signature idea i limb nating the 4.6 state individual income tax for partnerships, limited liability corporations and similar businesses. now, when brownback passed his steep income tax cuts in 2012, he called it a real-life experiment. >> but on taxes, you need to get your overall rates down and you need to get your social manipulation out of it in my estimation to create growth. and we'll see how it works, we'll have a real live experiment, we're right next to some other states is that haven't lowered taxes, you'll get a chance too see how this impacts a particular experimental area and i think kansas will do well. >>. >> that's the benchmark, it's been three years since brownback's plan took effect.
as the governor is recommending trump document that model for the nation it would seem logical to take the government up on his offer to assume the experiment has been working out great for kansas, right? take a look at the results at thing 2 in just 60 seconds. afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine.
all seems beautiful to me. kansas republican governor sam brownback is so proud of his tax plan he's publicly advising donald trump adopt it for the nation. but as economists have reported for years, that economic vision appears to be failing spectacularly in kansas. the massive tax cut blew a massive knoll the state budget and now a $350 million deficit is expected to grow. the state's credit rating has been downgraded twice and falling cuts to higher education and medicaid brownback used around $2 billion designated for highway funding to cover the budget holes. meanwhile, tax cuts have done little to jump start kansas's economy overall. growth for this year projected to be flat compared with 2% gdp growth nationally. today we got one more economic indicator out of the region. brownback claimed in 2012 you could measure his kansas
experiment against neighboring state which is did not enact the same type of drastic income tax cuts like nebraska. justin fox from bloomberg has been tracking employment growth between kansas and nebraska and found the gap has only grown this year kansas is the blue line that's been flat for two years while nebraska is pulling away. why would donald trump follow the advice of a governor whose policies slowed economic growth and hiring? one possible selling point the plan would probably be good for people like donald trump. as the "washington post" reported on kansas earlier this year the poorest 20% of households are paying $200 more in state taxes according to an analysis on the institute of taxation and policy. meanwhile, the wealthiest 1% of households are saving an average of $25,000. at geico... geico has a long history of great savings and great service. over seventy-five years.
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one of the defining features of 2016 was the revelation that different parts of the electorate live in distinct universes of knowledge. some of the most notorious examples of this phenomenon were the many fake news stories that circulated during the campaign. stories like "denzel washington endorses donald trump." which didn't happen or the infamous pizza gate conspiracy theory which one drove one consumer to enter a family restaurant in washington, d.c. armed with an ar-15 rifle. it's a disturbing trend that's continued after the election. in new polling out from economists and yougov reveals how deep the problem is. according to their post-election survey, 49%, almost half, of self-identified republicans believe it is definitely true or probably true that "leaked e-mail from some of clinton's campaign staffers contained code
words for pedophilia, human trafficking and satanic ritual abuse." that's the basis of the aformentioned pizzagate conspiracy. similarly on health insurance, only one in four remembers believe the number of people without health insurance has gone down during the obama administration. a thing that is both demonstrably true and one of the signature achievements of this administration. 52% of republicans believe millions of illegal votes were cast in the 2016 election. a conspiracy theory trump pushed himself on twitter after winning the election. and -- and this is important -- not just republicans. that same poll found that more than half of self-identified democrats think that russia went so far as to interfere with the actual vote tallies in order to get trump elected, something for which there is no evidence. now, instances of voter misinformation based on partisan affiliation is hardly new, from 9/11 truthers to wmd in iraq to the obama birther conspiracy, there are plenty of examples of myths that have pervaded one small part of the electorate over another over the past few years. but what does seem particularly
new and troubling is the extent to which these lies seem to be increasing in both frequency and reach thanks in part to the increasingly balkanized and polarized ways we consume information. given the current president-elect has made a habit of stretching or making things up that are demonstrably not true. how exactly will this epidemic of misinformation affect the way a trump administration carries out his agenda? joining me now, jason johnson, politics editor at the root and professor of politics and communication at morgan state university. josh bare roerks serow senior e b business insider. i don't want to think this is so new. we all have confirmation bias across the ideological spectrum. we all partake of information in selective ways, so what is new to your mind here? >> well, what is new is this, chris. we've always had conspiracies. there are people who don't think we landed on the moon. there are plenty of polls that show people do believe the x files and that we have hidden
aliens. but what it comes from is a mixture of cynicism about the government and the fact that people aren't getting their information from the same place and when you have a president -- a president-elect donald trump who basically says the government is full of liars and fools and you can't trust anything they say and there's a lot of people who believe that, they're willing to believe the government will do anything and therefore a crazy story about pedophilia or denzel washington endorsing donald trump is the kind of thing some people whether believe because they think the entire system is corrupt. >> part of this, too, josh is there's a certain basic level at which even fairly basic policy details are not known. so if you look at health insurance, this is the basic goal of the aca, if it did one thing, more people got insured. 40% of republicans believe people without insurance has increased but 24% of democrats and 26% think it stayed the same so at some level the basic facts of the matter aren't penetrating to anyone. >> yeah, although i think they
may be sbha bomewhat better kno than these surveys indicate. there were surveys done like this and one was a regular survey and they did another one where they said if you get the questions right we'll enter you into a drawing far $200 amazon gift card. sure enough, when you do that, the answers get more accurate and the partisan gap in the answers declines. it doesn't become perfect. there's still misinformation out there but a lot of what this is, i think, is these expressive spoons where basically someone is taking the poll, they don't like barack obama and they give whatever they think the negative answer is about barack obama. >> right. >> so that's not -- >> the question between, like, an expressive response and an actual belief, right? which i agree. there's some of that. but jason then i go back to the birther thing. it's like obama -- was obama born in kenya. you have 52% of republicans saying definitely probably true. and i think josh is right. there's some level at this this is just a "i don't like barack obama" answer but then there's also like i've talked to a lot of people i've interviewed who do think the guy was born in
kenya. that's definitely a thing they believe and the person most associated with that ridiculous theory is going to be the next president of the united states. >> yes. and that's the crazy thing. chris, i have said this all along about birthers that this is scooby do logic that obama fooled everybody except for these plucky kids and their dog that figured out he's from kenya. it doesn't make any sense. but here's the thing about conspiracies also that lead to people believing them and believing this nonsense over time because we've seen things that were at one point conspiracies turn out to be true. you and i remember when we were kids the idea that the u.s. government had any involvement with drugs in the inner city seems crazy then we have iran-contra and found out they did so people think it will be true one day. >> there's a sort of mass skepticism that tends to curdle on itself. thanks for joining me. i'll say good-bye to you guys because we have breaking news. b nbc news has confirmed that actress debbie reynolds died at the age of 84, one day after the
death of her daughter carrie fisher. joining me now with more is nbc's gadi schwartz. ga gadi, what have you learned? >> we are hearing she was hospitalized after possibly reporting symptoms of shortness of breathe. we now know that she has died at the hospital, her son confirming that to nbc news. debbie reynolds one of the most popular actresses of her time, the mother of carrie fisher. she has been in mourning since carrie fisher's hospitalization and then subsequent death and now mother and daughter seeming to die within a few days of each other just after the holidays, heartbreaking here in hollywood. a lot of people coming forward. people expressing their condolences but that's the latest we have right now. she was hospitalized for shortness of breath and we understand she has now passed away. back to you. >> thank you, gadi, debbie reynolds married to eddie fisher with whom she had carrie fisher.
in fact, carrie fisher was on the front page of the "l.a. times" before she was even born. just when she was essentially conceived. she was on that front page down at the bottom. debbie, eddie, expect baby in november. debbie reynolds who was in a number of films and her marriage was a sort of brangelina of its day. eddie fisher leaving her for elizabeth taylor, it was a huge scandal at the time and the incredible relationship debbie reynolds and carrie fisher had which carrie fisher was just talking about in a fresh air interview that aired recently. it was the sort of grist for "postcards from the edge," a relationship of tremendous love and devotion between carrie fisher and debbie reynolds, one that was reflected in carrie fisher's amazing work in her writing, in the interviews she gave, in the work she would publish throughout the years and just an unbelievably heartbreaking turn of events at the end of this year. carrie fisher dying a few days ago at the age of 60 and now they've received news her mother, debbie reynolds and her
life long friend in this sort of most profound way a parent and child can be a friend dying just a few days later. that confirmed at this hour, breaking news by nbc >> thank you at home for watching. i'm in for rachel who is out tonight. we have a lot on this breaking news. the day after "star wars" actress and longtime mental health activist carrie fisher passed away at the age of 60, her mother, as chris was just reporting, her mother debbie reynolds passed away at the age of 84. she was best known for her role in "singing in the rain." she was just 19 at that time. she was nominated for a golden globe as the character in "the unsinkable molly brown." we have some political news in the show tonight but we want to begin with nbc's gabe gutierrez who has more on this story.